The Methodist Church of Great Britain voted this summer at its annual conference to prohibit any member of the political party, the British National Party (BNP), from joining any Methodist Church of Great Britain.
This normally might not be news deserving special mention, but it does raise an issue similar to that being discussed by United Methodists, namely: in a day when "inclusiveness" seems to be a new Christian value, should anyone for any reason be prohibited from Methodist Church membership?
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When Quoting Scripture Inflicts Harm
6 years ago
15 comments:
Funny you should write this, I have been mulling over something for a few days, that might just fit here.
Should a church have a formalised membership at all? Are there benefits with membership? Is church membership like country club membership? What do you get with your membership? When did membership of the church begin?
Early Christians had everything in common and shared their lives together. Their devotion to each other denoted their committment, not a formal decision or a roll call. In fact, they didnt call themselves Christians at the beginning - the name came from non-believers. People saw this group of people who were alike - they followed the same God and lived their lives in such a way that they earned the nick-name "Christian" or "little Christ". Their 'membership' was how they lived their lives - nothing else.
I wonder what church would look like without membership - what would be different.
I think I will write more about this on my blog page tonight - http://jakephysio.blogspot.com/
My concern about membership has always been "who decides who's in and who's out?". I have many friends whose lifestyles may be frowned upon by some who are "in". However, these are the same people who would benefit most and most need the love that can be found in God's church.
It's the same question that I would ask of the church... Are my gay friends welcome? Is my friend who had an abortion welcome? What about my friends who are seeking and in need of the comfort that can be found in a church of people who care for one another without judgement (that is, a judgement that only God can make but it seems like a lot of us will be only to happy to oblige)? Or need to find the "answer" for themselves.
I see three levels of involvement in the church - attendance, membership, and leadership.
I see church attendance as level one and I would support the doors of the church being open to all persons. The church is a hospital for sinners. How will any of us learn or grow in our Christian walk without the Body of Christ? The church should not exclude anyone.
I see church membership, if your church has membership, as level two. In the United Methodist Church the pastor determines if someone is ready to join the church (according to our book of rules - the Discipline). For me, it isn't what sins we commit or battle with that determines our readiness for church membership but rather our attitude toward our sins and our sincere efforts to go and sin no more. Are all who come to worship ready for church membership? Although I would take it on a person by person basis, I would have to say no, in general. Part of the vows of church membership is a profession of faith for example. Also an acceptance of the Bible as the rule of our lives. And a pledge to live a Christian life. Would all who come to worship be ready to take these vows?
The third level in the church is leadership. Leaders are those who are officers, teachers, lay speakers, etc. Would all who attend worship be ready for church leadership - no. Would all members be ready for church leadership - no. A leader for me is a person who shows some measure of Christian maturity and a readiness to serve.
Just some thoughts.
Would we be comfortable having a pedophile, even a reformed person, working with our children? At some point, we have limits or requirements in our lives and in our churches. Denominationally we have certain rules, right or wrong, and Scripturally we have standards as well.
Jesus didn't condemn, neither should we, but he did tell folks to go and sin no more. He did select some to be his disciples and some in that group to be his inner circle. Decisions need to be prayerfully made for sure.
Your thoughts?
It seems we are thinking about "membership" as a way to belong - to get into an organization. I wonder if we turned it around and said that membership to a church is our way of committing ourselves to the life of that church for Jesus Christ. Rather than the church (or what ever organization) making what seems like huge hurdles for inclusion, we actually set the goal of wanting to dedicate our lives to Christ. We want to commit to such a life through the life of a church. Kind of makes me remember the Kennedy speech "Ask not what your country can do for you.... " What can I do for my God through the support provided by being a member of the church.
Nah!!!
Why limit the throngs? The Methodist church allows all kinds of people across the board. Look at the membership roles to the leadership roles, from one side of the isle to the other, from one side of the world to the other. There is a HUGE gap in belief and pretty much anything goes. There is almost NO enforcement or should I say very little holiness expected anymore. The idea of being different has been morphed into “being just like the carnal world”. All too often, I have heard folks say we need to be like em’, to win em’. It just depends on where you are in the world and what is the makeup of folks in any given location. I have read and witnessed many leaders in the denomination purport what the “discipline” says over the bible. As if somehow the “discipline” holds more weight than the actual Word of God. They may say the bible is first and foremost, but, the deeds add up to a very different picture. The bible has this to say about false preachers, that you will know them by their fruit, notice it didn’t say, you will know them by what they profess. Now I am not suggesting that everyone in the Methodist church is false, what I am suggesting is that maybe, just maybe, sectarianism is alive and well. I would say this about ALL denominations, not just the Methodists. It seems too many in this world, we now find ourselves, are loyal to the stripes and colors of a denomination over and above the body.
Just my thoughts – from a recovering “denominationalist”.
Bob, don't lump all Methodists together, nor all denominations or persons in denominations... for that matter, all non-denominationals as well.
As far as this Christian, who is a Methodist pastor, the Bible is primary and supreme to the Book of Discipline. When the Discipline disagrees with the Bible, the Bible wins, period.
I agree with you that I should not lump all; I did state that in my response. I would also agree that would be very foolish and dim-witted. But, one certainly has to as they survey the landscape today, ask themselves why and how did all these groups and denominations come to be; maybe because of the “member”, “group” and even the “gang” mentality; a mentality that is rooted in our fallen, sinful and corrupt nature. When we look at church history, there was no such thing as the groups and denominations that we see today. Are we to suggest that we have it better these days and have come to some sort of knowledge, a knowledge that was somehow missed by our early church brethren? As a matter of fact, they preached against it and included the message within sacred scripture. Are we to somehow now, in our “enlightened” culture, shun the wisdom and the Holy Spirits leading of our beginning? I would suggest that denominations are man’s attempt to “qualify” true believers and somehow cast the rule of participation to that of which is no different than the Pharisees and Sadducees.
There is a huge gap in practice within any denomination and yet ALL, who are members, support the head correct. How can those be considered members if they don’t support the head? I would suggest that is where the true test manifests itself – when knowing full well that certain acts and policies go against the bible and God’s ordained will for mankind – the throng’s continue on in fellowship with known unrepentant false teachers. I know the verbiage goes like: “well that is not my belief”, but how, how can anyone justify the membership of a group whose leadership condones such abominable acts and simply brush it off as “well that is not my belief”? I would like to add these verses for consideration: “Heb. 12:14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.” - We have the peace part down, but what about the holiness? Also, “Jos. 24:15 and if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve,” and “1 Kin. 18:21 And Elijah came near to all the people and said, “How long will you go limping between two different opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal, then follow him.” And the people did not answer him a word.” I don’t think “waffling” is a biblical stand, and certainly, memberships in groups don’t make one a Christian.
On another thought, “What is church for - ? Who is church for? These are two important questions that seem to be debated on and off. It seems this “enlightened” culture we live in can’t even come to terms to whom and what is the church, whom is church for?”
Bob R, sadly 'denominations' have been around since the time when people declared, "I follow Paul, I follow Apollos, I follow Cephas, I follow Jesus" (1 Cor 1:12). sadly even back in those days there were differences that were raised and leaders being set up against each other.
What is more important fundamentally is how people answer the question that Jesus asked his disciples in Matthew 16:15 - "Who do you say that I am?"
It doesn't matter where you worship, or how you worship, if the object of your worship matches the correct answer to that question. If our answer is not that of Peter then we are lost. Peter answered Jesus by saying, "You are the Christ. The Son of the living God." That is what our answer must be. If you answer that question the same way that Peter did, but worship with a different style of music, or have different ideas of baptism, that is all style preference, you and I will be one. If however you cannot answer that question the way Peter did then we cannot be one because the bedrock of our foundation is not the same.
You asked who or what the church is - let me give you a quick response. The church is God's demonstration of community to the world (Erwin McManus). The church is not a place you go to or an experience you have. The church is the tribe of Jesus traveling along this journey of life together reaching out to a dying and a hurting world. We need to recognize that we ARE the church and as such statements like, "I am looking for a church to meet my needs" are crazy. If you are a follower of Jesus then the church is not here to meet your needs, you are part of the church and it is your responsibility to reach out the world with the love of God.
Let's set the labels aside. Let's set the differences aside. Let's find the common ground on which Jesus said He would build His church - the fact that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
Let's BE the church universal, the tribe, the community, the gathering of Jesus followers who reach out to a dying world with love and compassion.
Jason – Thanks for your response. It seems we agree that it is sad denominationalism has so muddied things up and has made something beautiful to be somewhat tarnished. However, we both know that the light of Christ shines through all the dirt and our poor excuses for sectarianism can’t hinder or alter the glorious work of the Lord our God.
While I kind of get where you are coming from I would offer that it DOES matter how we worship the Lord Jesus Christ. We are told that we must worship him in spirit and in truth. “John 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” In ‘spirit’, a wholly mental, inward, spiritual worship that only a transformed soul can render unto the Father, a soul transformed by the precious blood, the atoning work of Jesus Christ - a spirit pure in heart.
In ‘truth’, agreeing with God, contrite in spirit for sins committed, glorifying God the Father for the sacrifice of His only begotten Son for our sins and believing in Him and trusting in Him. This ‘truth’ being that of which is written in the pages of the bible is the only acceptable truth. That truth, as taught in the pages of scripture, opposing the superstitions of the gentiles, the inventions of the Jews, and importantly in our day, the opposing of corrupt opinions of false teachers and professors. Essentially, what honors God, what exalts His name, should be used to worship God – in spirit and truth.
In John 4, back one verse, in verse 23, Jesus even distinguished between ‘true’ worshippers and ‘false’ worshippers: “John 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.” There are those who worship in the many ‘churches’ today and I would suggest that because they worship according to their ‘own’ ways, are in fact not true worshippers. (I don’t claim to know them or who they are – nor am I pointing to anyone specifically here or there) They are deceived in believing that they can worship God anyway they want. And, in the context of truth, if it’s not found in the pages of scripture, then it can be whatever they make it and this is dangerous.
end of part 1, see part 2
begin part 2
While I agree that church isn’t a ‘building’, I would whole heartily disagree that church is a “demonstration of community to the world”; church is not that. Church according to scripture is a coming together of two or more in the worship of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is the place that Christians come to have fellowship, share in the doctrine of the saints, break bread in remembrance of the death and resurrection of our dear Lord Jesus Christ. Unbelievers are welcome but they, until they are born again, cannot do what we do in church. The bible says that before the Holy Spirit does a mighty and gracious work of conversion in us, we cannot offer to God the service and ministering of worship, the breaking of bread in remembrance, the doctrine is like stench to us and we certainly cannot have fellowship with the unbelievers in the context of the ‘saved’.
The bible says, what fellowship does light have with darkness, and the bible also says that while they remain in unbelief they cannot worship God. They are dead in trespasses and sins, “Eph. 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—“
I agree with you that church is not about our needs, but the needs of the brethren, it’s about the worship and praise of the Lord. It is where Christians come to minister, worship and gets prepared to take the gospel to the world. NOT the ‘social’ gospel, but the true gospel. NOT the gospel of apple pies, but the taking of food which endures forever. What good does taking an apple pie to someone and not sharing the good news of the gospel? What if they choke while you’re gone and they die without hearing the good news that brings healing to a broken soul?
The statement; “Let's set the labels aside. Let's set the differences aside. Let's find the common ground on which Jesus said He would build His church - the fact that He is the Christ, the Son of the living God.”, while I kind of get where you are going with this part of the response, this part just absolutely scares me. This statement of setting aside differences has my mind going in so many directions. Questions and concerns abound. How can we set aside differences if there is error? Try that line of thinking with one of your math teachers, or a judge in a court of law. There can be no unity in error!!!
Wow! This is long – please forgive me as I let the thoughts roll off. God bless and I look forward to more on this issue. Seems I may have gotten off course a little after reading this back to myself. Lol
Ps – this verse came to mind as I was closing, “Psa. 50: 21 these things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself.” I am reminded that while we have scripture, we must remain vigilant in the doctrine of truth. While we can do things and God appears to be silent, He reminded the Israelites that just because He remained silent, He WASN’T just like them!
end final part - 2
Hi Bob R, and everyone else who is following this discussion, I am intrigued as to why you do not believe that the church is a demonstration of community to the world. We were created to be in community – after all we were created in God’s image and He is always in perfect community with the Son and the Spirit. In Gen 2:18 God announced that it wasn’t good for man to be alone – because we were not complete at that point. God created community. Jesus prays in John 17:21 that we would be one. IN Acts 2:42-27 there is s description of the first church – they had everything in common – they were community. All of mankind longs for community – just looked at all the college alumni who still wear their college colors. They joined a community in college and cling to it now in adulthood. If mankind is longing for community and will find it wherever they can, college fraternities, street gangs, social clubs, etc – then maybe God might have had a plan in mind to demonstrate what true community actually is – I believe He called that the church.
“Church according to scripture is a coming together of two or more in the worship of the Lord Jesus Christ,” I think you are referring to what Jesus said in Matthew 18:20 but Jesus never clarified what activities would be performed when they come together. The object was that they came together in ‘Jesus name’ to do whatever is on Jesus heart. As far as unbelievers joining in with the gathering of two or three in Jesus name – how else will they hear about Jesus? If Jesus is present when we gather together then wouldn’t that be the optimum place to bring unbelievers? Aside from breaking bread in communion, there is nothing else in the bible that unbelievers are restricted from doing. They may not understand everything or get what we get from it, but they can participate. Jesus called people to follow him – as they followed him and saw what he did they began to change what they did to mirror him – they became little Christs.
With regard to the gospel of apple pies – you might want to remove Matthew 25:42 out of your bible – “I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat” – I think Jesus was referring to real food there and not a gospel message. Mother Theresa was quoted as saying “Share the gospel with everyone, and use words only when necessary.” For some they don’t care how much we know until they know how much we care. Sometimes giving apple pie is telling them the gospel.
As far as setting aside differences – we must do that. We focus so much of our time challenging each other on our interpretation of scripture and we fail to follow the command Jesus gave us in John 13:34-35 – that we would love one another. The world calls us hypocrites instead of disciples because when they look at us they don’t see what Jesus asked us to do – they don’t see love. Are there false doctrines out there? Yes there are. Are we asked to test the spirits? Yes we are. But first and foremost we were commanded to love one another.
You said there can be no unity in error – which is not true if everyone is wrong – then there is unity in error.
I enjoy the discussion – I hope Pastor Ray doesn’t mind us hijacking his blog thread.
Yes we have "spent many letters and words with this one huh? lol
We have gotten off topic a bit and after reading the responses so far, I think we may be off course on what it is that the question wanted in response.
I admit when I first responded it was a bit snarky. Meaning I was trying to point out the utter lack of discernment that is rampant in the church these days.
A lot of this stuff has been debated over the years and there will always be those who disagree to some extent or another.
There are clearly those in the church that see “love” as the “catch” all to end all. Meaning they focus so much on “love” that they either forget or ignore the other attributes of God. They cry love, love, and love and in the end…crucify, crucify, crucify - God’s holiness, righteousness, and justness. A big part of love is telling someone that they are headed for a cliff. Love is not just a cute thought. Love is an act of the will, accompanied by emotions that leads to action on behalf of it object (Vodie Bauchum)
A lot has been said and instead of belaboring the issue, I will ask that brother Ray give us some more string. Give us some hints if you will as to where he is going with this topic with more specificity.
One other thing:
“Mother Theresa was quoted as saying “Share the gospel with everyone, and use words only when necessary.”
She also said this:
“We never try to convert those who receive [aid from Missionaries of Charity] to Christianity but in our work we bear witness to the love of God’s presence and if Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, or agnostics become for this better men — simply better — we will be satisfied. It matters to the individual what church he belongs to. If that individual thinks and believes that this is the only way to God for her or him, this is the way God comes into their life — his life. If he does not know any other way and if he has no doubt so that he does not need to search then this is his way to salvation.” (Pages 81-82)
Is this something you would hear Paul, Peter or any other early church brethren say? Would you agree with her second statement above?
You must know that what she said in your quote is rank heresy. It is one of the most UNSCRIPTURAL clichés uttered by anyone. It goes completely against anything Jesus did in the scriptures. If you want an example of this see John 4.
Thanks so much for interacting. I checked out your blog as well. Nice job. I have been contemplating such an Endeavour myself; doesn’t it require a lot of time though? That has been my concern. I really enjoy the blogs though and I really love discussing our new life in Christ.
Ps I have a little 2 yr old daughter and your pictures reminded me of the great gift God has given us, amen? The little ones are a real joy. My wife and I hope to have another soon!!! God bless.
I love this thread! Thanks to Bob R. and Jason for the back-and-forth. This is important stuff to discuss because we live in a watered down world of Christianity! Heaven forbid we should offend someone with the truth, though the Truth is offensive. It's good to see the communication, the banter, the scriptural quotes, etc. And I agree completely that Mother Teresa was WRONG in her plan of salvation. That's the plan to hell!
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Hmmm, interesting comments. I didn't realize that Mother Theresa could draw such emotion. I was merely using the quote - that is attributed to her but is actually traced back to St Francis of Assisi. He said "Preach the gospel at all times, use words only when necessary"
I wonder sometimes if the world doesn't hear our message because they dont believe we care. If you read through the accounts of Jesus and the many times that he healed all of the sick people - he often did that BEFORE he preached to them. He met their needs - physical through healing, or food - then he reached out to their spiritual needs.
We must do both. An over emphasis on one without the other will not be effective.
But we digress - this post was originally about membership in the church. I wonder if those reading this series of posts are members of their churches. I wonder what that looks like. I wonder if they know the vision and mission of their church.
Maybe we should re-define membership more clearly and set some greater challenges to becoming a member. I wonder if that would shut down the back door a little bit. There seems to be little loyalty in churches these days. People going wherever they think their needs will be met - sadly that isn't what the church is for. Jesus never intended the church to meet the needs of the believers. The purpose of the church is to reach the world with the love of Jesus and to make disciples of all men.
So all you members out there, what is the vision and mission of the church you are a member of? Or are those details not important?
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