What is your opinion about homosexuality? Are there scriptures that speak to your understanding of this topic?
When Quoting Scripture Inflicts Harm
6 years ago
Tuesday, September 16, 2008
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- Ray McDonald
- I am willing to do what no one else is doing, that I might reach those no one is reaching for Jesus.
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17 comments:
I consider myself somewhat liberal, but one foundation I stand firm on is that "sex" was created for a male and femle only. Though there have been means created to prevent pregnacy by the human race, the reproduction of any species is only by a male and female. Therefore that alone has been ordained by God.
I believe God blesses any union between two people that is based on a shared faith and has a relationship with Christ at its center. I do not believe God cares if those people have a marriage liscense issued by any state.
God gives all of us gifts to use in his service and expects us to do so. I believe the church is wrong to question God's calling of homosexual Christians into any ministry.
Promiscuity of any kind is a sin. Homosexuality or heterosexuality in and of themselves are not promiscuous.
Anonymous wrote: I believe the church is wrong to question God's calling of homosexual Christians into any ministry.
I would ask - how do you get to this conclusion? Is there Scriptural support for your view?
Is this a case of the world's view affecting our view of things? Can we really find support in Scripture for the homosexual lifestyle?
We all sin. But if we live in our sin and do not try to turn from it but expect God to accept us in it, something is wrong.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
There are also references to heterosexual marriage in Scripture but none mentioned or support for homosexual couples. How would your faith deal with the many passages that speak against the homosexual lifestyle?
Just some thoughts.
Anonymous wrote: "I believe God blesses any union between two people that is based on a shared faith and has a relationship with Christ at its center."
I would like to know how a union can be blessed by God if the parties in that relationship, who claim to have Christ at its center, have a fundamental belief that is not in accordance with the Bible. Does God bless something that goes against the Holiness of His nature?
It truly breaks my heart to live in a society where the majority will live according to what feels right for them and expects everyone else to accept it, otherwise, we are insensitive and not politically correct. We are looked down upon for speaking out against another’s religion. We are expected to be respectful of the beliefs of others, even if it’s not in line with the TRUTH. (I can’t wait to go through the Truth Project training) If we dare say anything to the contrary of those beliefs, we are bigots. When will we be more concerned about the condition of the souls of our brothers and sisters rather than being politically correct? We have to stop living according to our feelings and in accordance with the Word of God. Because of our sinful nature, living a Godly life will not always feel good. In fact, it hurts more because we are battling against the desires of the flesh. Just because something feels good doesn’t mean it’s good for you.
1 Peter 1:3 - All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead...
2 Corinthians 5:17 - This means that anyone who belongs to Christ has become a new person. The old life is gone; a new life has begun!
I know there are many who believe that they were born homosexual and did not choose that lifestyle. Even if that is true, which I seriously doubt, the Bible states that when we come to Christ, our old life of sin has passed away and we have become a new creature in Him. So, even if there is a miniscule chance that someone is born homosexual, once he or she is saved, they are not re-born the same way.
Just in case I am wrong and have interpreted the Bible incorrectly and homosexuality is not against the very nature of God, then God owes the people of Sodom and Gomorra an apology.
I might suggest whoever posted the last reaction read the account of Sodom and Gomorrah in "The Children are Free". It provides food for thought in interpreting that passage in Genesis.
It seems that discussions on homosexuality come down to who is right and who is wrong. In our attempts to be "right" we forget what we are supposed to be about. God's grace is available to ALL of us whether we want to believe it or not with respect to homosexuals. Instead of approaching homosexuality in a loving manner we bar the doors because of the "sin". We believe their has to be a "winner". Our impact is that we prove those who criticize the church stance right. Instead of showing God's love we push those who desparately want to hear it away. Last time I looked that was a sin.
I want to know why we believe this sin (if it is) is so grave that we should not allow homosexuals to participate in the life of the church. We don't "punish" any other sins that way.
Personally it saddens me that we cannot all serve God together and draw strength from our differences. Just maybe a homosexual Christian among us could help us minister to the homosexual Christian. First we would have to believe that you can be homosexual and Christian. Too many don't want to believe that. You can be an adulterer and Christian but not homosexual and Christian. Everyone agrees adultry is a sin. Even theologians, Biblical scholars, and seminary professors don't agree on whether or not homosexuality is a sin.
Somehow I don't believe we the church are approaching this "issue" the way God would have us do so.
I hope we can get past it and occupy our time, energy, and money where it counts ... sharing God's love with those who don't know him ---- homosexual or heterosexual.
I'm not sure what the book, The Children are Free says, but I do know that the Bible says the following;
Genesis 18:20-21: 20 Then the Lord said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Their sin is described also:
Genesis 19:4-5: 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
I agree that we should love and minister to all persons. And that God's grace is available to all who seek it.
The difference I see with the example used by the previous poster is confessed sin. If the person who is caught up in adultery or homosexuality or any sexual sin or any sin confesses they are battling sin and strives by God's grace to repent and turn from their sin, they are on the same page. The issues is some in the church community do not acknowledge homosexuality as sin. That is really the major breaking point. We know how to deal with confessed sin and the struggles we all face. We do not do so well with persons who expect their sinful lifestyle to be blessed and accepted. And for some that comes down to their interpretation of the Bible. And for some that comes down to their personal feelings or experience.
Mt. Oak is open to all sinners who wish to be drawn deeper into their walk with Jesus. The Bible is loving and convicting and we all need the amazing grace of God.
So, it sounds like you believe we all have to interpret scripture (in this case agree on sin) in the same manner and that is okay to exclude those who don't believe as we do?
From reading the previous post I have to ask the question of whether or not Mt. Oak would welcome a homosexual family into the church family. And, would Mt. Oak allow a homosexual Christian to used his or her gifts in church service.
There is nothing I can find in the UMC discipline that says otherwise.
I believe you have assumed something that was not said. I would welcome all sinners to join me, a sinner, to worship God.
My point of separation comes when we do not acknowledge our sin and strive to resist the flesh and repent of our sinful ways. A person who lives in sin, not acknowledging it or striving to repent of it is a person who is not ready for leadership in the church. Maybe not even membership in the church since when we join we are asked to affirm Do you renounce the spiritual forces of wickedness, reject the evil powers of this world, and repent of your sins?
The difference as I stated is between those who call sin acceptable and those who do not. You may say it is an interpretive difference - and it may be - there is always a need for God's grace, even in our interpretations.
I would not turn anyone away from the ministry of the church. I would hold to Biblical standards as best possible for membership in the church and leadership in the church.
I welcome debate and discussion.
I haven't read anyone finding Scripture that supported the homosexual lifestyle as supported and God given.
I didn't see one post until after I had responded earlier today. A paragraph from the Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church reads as follows:
Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching. We affirm that God's grace is available to all, and we will seek to live together in Christian community. We implore families and churches not to reject or condemn lesbian and gay members and friends. We commit ourselves to be in ministry for and with all persons.
Paragraph 161:11:G - 2004 BOD
Ministering to and with persons of sin doesn't mean we condone the sin, nor does it mean we condemn the sinner.
Would it be appropriate to have known unrepentive spouse abuser as a church leader? Would it be acceptable for the unrepentive community prostitute to serve as a church leader? Would an known unrepentive gossip be the right person to lead the congregation?
The issues remains: Is living a homosexual lifestyle sin or not? The question is not should we welcome all sinners - of course the answer is yes. Until we resolve the issue of sin, we will not agree on church membership or leadership.
Then it does not sound like Mt. Oak would welcome a homosexual Christian unless that person agrees that homosexuality is a sin and wants to "change".
That appears more exclusive than the UMC doctrine quoted.
Regardless, because Mt. oak welcoming a homosexual member is not the issue. The issue is keeping someone from a relationship with God. If we aren't open to discussing someone's beliefs with them then we have done that regardless of what that belief is or how different it is from our own.
There are entire books written on scriptural interpretation of the 6 passages in the Bible that relate to homosexuality. We cannot adequately cover them in a blog.
I will try to synopize them in a later post.
In my previous church with my same interpretation of Scripture we had gay couples and heterosexual couples living together that knew my position yet felt loved and welcomed into the fellowship.
We may have the same at Mt. Oak that I have not been made aware of yet. We welcome all - and we strive, together, to rid our lives of sin, by God's grace. We do this so that we might let Christ shine more and more in our lives.
Pastor Ray, I agree with your understanding of the Bible and applaud your honesty and your open mind and heart to this subject.
We are open to all, but sin is still sin.
My difficulty here is that it seems we single out things the Bible says that are sins - that other people do - and harp on them, forgetting the things the Bible says is sin - that we do.
Forget the OT, forget Paul, what did Jesus say (and yes, I know all Scripture is the word of God)? He said anyone who divorces for a reason other than infidelity and remarries is guilty of adultery.
The verse is quite clear - regardless of which gospel it is in or which commentary talks about it. Remarriage after divorce (other than adultery) is adultery.
Why do we condone people who have remarried and are thus committing adultery? That is clearly an unconfessed/unrepentant sin.
Furthermore, it is a continuing sin - not just a adulterous moment in the past.
Sory, but the Bible seems pretty clear here. And I dare not mention women speaking in church, men wearing long hair, women wearing make-up, tatoos, etc.
I know what the Bible says, but I need someone to explain to me why we pick and choose, before I will enter the discussion on homosexuality.
What about it folks - do we condone some sins - the ones we commit or are comfortable with while condemning the ones we do not do or feel uncomfortable about?
Is divorce a sin? If it is, how can one repent?
Is remarriage a sin? If so, how can we repent? Must we divorce again to rid ourselves of one sin while committing another?
What does the Scripture say? I will add a new post for this discussion and keep them one for the homosexual issue at hand.
I promised in an earlier post to summarize the passages dealing with homosexuality. The frustrating thing for me with the whole subject is that we let "being right" take precedence over serving God.
Instead of summarizing the passages which would make this incredibly long. Let me just mention a few things that are certainly worth consideration in discussing homosexuality.
1) the "church" (intentionally or not) is keeping people from a relationship with God by not welcoming homosexuals or homosexual Christians.
2) the passages in the Bible have to be taken in the context in which they were written to fully grasp their meaning
3) there was no word when the books of the Bible were written for homosexual
4) promiscuity is being discussed in some passages where homosexuality is mentioned
5) there is no mention of a loving, committed homosexual relationship in the Bible
6) few marriages in Biblical times were for "love"
7) it was a sin to waste semen in Biblical times. not many believe that today. ... if that is the case and you still believe that then it makes sense that relationships between men would be a sin
8) in understanding the scripture we have to look at word origin and other uses of the same word in texts written during the same time period. One of the words interpreted as homosexuality only appears in a handful of writings and it is difficult to draw a conclusion about a consistent meaning
9) when sin is listed in Biblical passages similar sins appear to be grouped. Homosexuality is not always grouped with sexual sins.
I could go on but there is food for thought in the above.
Some references that offer different perspectives and where the passages are broken apart:
The Rainbow Kingdom: Christianity and Homosexuality Reconciled (Shelton)
Seeing Gray in a World of Black and Shite (Hamilton)
Jesus, the Bible, and Homosexuality (Rogers)
What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality (Helminiak)
The Transcended Christian (Helminiak)
In the Eye of the Storm (Robinson)
Most of the above are written by ministers or priests, some Gay - some not. They offer different perspectives and analogies from Christians who for various reasons studied the relevant scriptures.
I had dinner last night with a friend from work who grew up in the church and admitted that he does not attend any church today because of the church's general stance on this topic and treatment of homosexuals.
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