For a few decades the debate concerning homosexuality has been a topic of discussion at General Conference and in the church. I would like to open this discussion on this blog page and see what happens.
I will begin with a portion of paragraph 161 in the 2004 Book of Discipline.
Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching.
Please keep your comments on the subject and do not be mean spirited.
Posts
When Quoting Scripture Inflicts Harm
6 years ago
31 comments:
I fully agree w/ the book of discipline's statement. Working for a large govt organization w/ a large workforce population I have had many encounters /associations in work and out of work w/ homosexuals. I have found persons of this sexual orientation very caring and sincere people, though unfortunately I don't find their sexual practices to be what God created.
J. Gorman
Like Mr. Gorman, I have a few friends who choose the lifestyle and the only difference between some of them and me is their sexual preference. I just don't know how to reach out to them.
If I bring up how homosexuality is as old as Deuteronomy and had major consequences (not to threaten them), someone will say "well stop eating crawfish because it had major consequences as well."
Then I might bring up that with Jesus we're not under law but under grace and then I'll get the response "Jesus never said anything about homosexuality in the gospels".
Then I could bring up the teachings of the epistles and then I would get the response "[St Paul] also said women shouldn't be in the pulpit" with the point that we accept women because they are able to receive an education now and that there are gays that want "healthy" monogamous relationships.
It just goes back and forth, back and forth. However, because of my experiences and through faith, there's not a gray area.
In the Truth project We talked about how Satan has put a spin on God's commandments since the beginning.
God says "do not eat of this", Satan says "you will surely not die". When God calls for opposites to attract, Satan throws in opposite species (beastailitly) or says "the same attracting isn't that bad"
Humans have an ultimate need of self-fulfillment and self-actualization whether gay or straight and have similar temptations; but at the end of the day the call of Jesus to all mankind is "The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." John 12:25
What studies has anyone found that support homosexuality as a learned behavior making homosexual behavior a choice? What studies have shown homosexual persons changing their sexual preference to heterosexuality?
What studies has anyone found that support homosexuality as genetic. Keep in mind that being genetic doesn't prove it is acceptable. There are many genetic disorders which are not acceptable.
The UMC got it right when they said in essence, "Love the sinner, hate the sin", but let's be honest, it's way too easy to point a finger and say "you shouldn't do this or that, and here's thirty bible verses to back it up". All that does is reinforce the bible-thumping stereotype.
The Bible says a lot of stuff about gossip, and yet you don't hear of church conferences devoting time to speak out against it. My point is, there seems to be some measure of acceptance of some activities clearly identified as sin in the Bible, while other activities (those that offend our moral compass) are protested, and used to segregate. Just a little hypocritical, if you ask me.
Homosexual acts are contrary to what God says in his Word, but we need to remember, it is an individual's choice to determine for him or herself if they are going to engage in that activity, and in doing so endure any consequence of that activity.
I am going to be judged for the life that I lead, for the decisions I make. You will be judged for the life YOU lead, not the one I lead. Just because a person makes a decision to do something that I don't agree with, it is NOT my role nor is it God's plan for me to try to convince that person that they are wrong. It is my job to love that person, to accept them as a person, and to be the ambassador that God wants me to be in showing them acceptance. In doing that, I can therefore leave all the judging up to God, who is way better at it than me anyway.
Y.E.
God’s grace is available to all of us. That includes homosexuals. I know of many homosexual Christians using their gifts to serve God through their churches and communities. I do not believe it is our place to question those gifts or how God may have called them to serve.
Several months ago we closed the 10:30 service with a discussion on outcasts. I was very moved by the apology to anyone the church has held at arm’s length or pushed away for any reason. Homosexual Christians have been an active part of the “church” for years. If one gets past the door and becomes involved and we grow to love them, we turn our eyes the other direction and assume that it is “okay – this time” because we “know” them. Yet, someone who looks just like them may not get the chance to learn about God’s love because we don’t share it with them. What would happen if a homosexual couple with children or even a single person visited at Mt. Oak? Would we show them the same love we show other visitors? Or, would we make them uncomfortable hoping that they would pick up on our drift and not come back? Would we turn them into “outcasts”? I watched several hands go up that Sunday when the question was asked of how many of us have ever felt “cast-out” or “pushed away” by the church.
I understand why the homosexual community views the wording that we so carefully crafted to be inclusive as anything but inclusive. Through their eyes we fall short of welcoming ALL or even believing that God’s grace is available to ALL. I know a United Methodist minister who fully believes that the denomination will divide some day because he sees no compromise. He does not believe that both “sides” love God and have Christ at the center. Personally I believe we are missing an opportunity to learn from our differences and to let our diversities strengthen us. It is not any of our place to question the ministry God has called another into yet we do in this case.
It is a complicated topic because we have different theological beliefs surrounding homosexuality. Stop and think for a minute though. We also have different theological beliefs regarding women in the ministry, interracial marriages, divorce, etc. Somehow we have been able to move beyond those differences and in some cases draw strength from them. Our denominational law has changed. Some of us don’t agree with those changes but we accept them and serve God in the same churches as those mentioned above. Somehow homosexuality is different. For probably a multitude of reasons we have made it worse than any other sin or “supposed” sin. It is worse than divorce, adultery, drinking too much at the company party, over-eating, driving too fast on the highway, or whatever you want to insert. I don’t know if that was intentional, motivated by lack of understanding of our differences, motivated by fear, or the result of the theological debate on the meaning of the scriptures surrounding it. I do believe that when a subject such as homosexuality, abortion, or any number of other topics come up we need to slow down and remember the real people caught in the middle of our debates. They need to know God’s love even if we don’t “agree” with something about them.
Is homosexuality a choice? I don’t believe it is. I know too many homosexuals who struggled with it for years. Can you change your sexual orientation? I don’t believe you can do that either. You can choose to have a relationship that is outside your natural orientation but I do not believe you can “change. God created all of this. When we are debating with others on this topic – we need to remember that fact.
I will be glad when the day comes that this kind of difference does not occupy large amounts of time at our General Conference. It takes needless time away from doing kingdom work because we are arguing about whether or not someone is worthy of being a part of us. I hope that when that day comes we have learned from our differences and are stronger because of them instead of being split between a church body with more reconciling attitudes and one holding fast to church history and tradition.
Jan
Should personal experience be a measuring rod? Should the Bible be a measuring rod? Should social norms be a measuring rod? Are there any facts, true facts, rather than opinions and feelings on this subject?
I would stop short in believing any statistical data on this because to get statistics one would use surveys, surveys based on personal experience.
About ten years ago, a man gave a testimony at Mt. Oak about how he overcame homosexuality which leads me to believe that it is a preference. However if I remember correctly, he chose that preference because of childhood experiences.
At some level, the topic is scientific with different hypotheses about if it's a choice or not, are you born with this preference or not.
All we really have are a few verses in the bible and how we interpret them.
I think there is a definite answer but it's an answer mankind has been struggling with since near the beginning it seems. I think what Jan and Yamaha said tell us perfectly how to DEAL with it. However, the part about letting them serve sort of undermines 1Cor5 "Expel the Immoral Brother"... And I guess that can be done with Love too? Or do we interpret that differently? We interpret woman preaching differently but it was written by the same apostle under the same Spirit.
I feel like the issue just has us running around in circles. Maybe a split might be good? There are a few thousand denominations already, would we really mind one more?(I know, bad time for a joke).
-Josef M
PS: I'm glad you're moderating the discussion Rev Ray but hopefully as time progresses you'll share your views and perspective?
Perhaps the question we should be asking is what are we measuring?
Our personal experiences are what make us who we are. They help form our attitudes and values. As Christians our faith should be the basis of our lives and reflected in those attitudes and values.
People should know by being around us that we are Christians because of the way we lead our lives. They may not necessarily be able to tell whether we are Republican or Democrat, gay or straight, conservative or liberal .... But their should be no doubt that we are Christian. That measuring rod should be loving others and sharing Christ's love with them. It should not holding others to our own standards or judging them based on our own beliefs and understandings.
Church history shows us that societal norms do over time have an impact on doctrines.
There is not time limit on scripture. The words between Genesis and Revelations are as relevant to today's world as they were to the world during the time they were written. The filter we put on scripture that influences our interpretation is that of our own experiences, societal norms, fears, and prejudices.
But, back to measuring rod... what about welcoming ALL with welcome arms, understanding their perspectives even when they differ from ours, and working together for the glory of God.
Jan
I am glad we can discuss this subject in love. I will from time to time interject some of my understandings but I want to hear what others believe as well.
I agree that the church needs to minister to all persons and that we should invite all persons to attend worship so they may hear God's Word and to be drawn into God's presence.
I also believe that persons who wish to join the church or lead the church, including lay and pastor leadership, are held to a higher standard than those invited to attend worship.
I agree that we are all sinners and that the difference many times is our attitude toward our sin, not whether we can remain pure.
The larger question for me isn't do we know homosexuals who are good people or heterosexuals who are not. The question for me rests more with the question of sin.
Some believe that homosexuality is not a sin. They see no difference between being gay, having red hair, the color of our skin or our gender. Some believe that homosexuality is an innate characteristic and something that a person doesn't have a choice concerning. This belief leads many to see homosexuality as acceptable and that the church needs to get over their concern.
Some believe that homosexuality is a learned behavior. Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family and other mental health experts have found homosexuality to be a developmental condition stemming from a combination of factors — including, but not limited to, dysfunctional family relationships.
If it is genetic? Does that make it OK? Some are genetically disposed to alcoholism, does that make that illness OK? There are other illnesses or behaviors that can be linked to genetics and yet our society will not accept them. What is the measuring rod?
The discussion continues.
I'm not a "deeper" book reader type and deal with issues straight forward as they happen. I consider myself a liberal. But one thing I always thought was a basic God- practice was creation, therefore from the entire animal kingdom & humans I've only know that a male & female species can reproduce. If reproduction were to end , then civiliation would end. Therefore the homosexual act does not allow the capabiltiy to create a new life, which therefore implies to me that such acts are not God inspired. I have great sepathy for homosexuals in how they "must internally wrestle" with the fact that they don't find the opposite sex of attraction physically/emotionally. I've often wonder at what early age does one have that sensing, but I do wonder is that somewhat environment driven &/or influenced by others upon them, and that if presented w/ God's word simply on creation and marriage between a man & woman, therefore would that not at least make one not want to practice homosexual acts or relationships.
J. Gorman
We all are sinners, that is a given. We have all lied, that makes us liars. I am sure I am not the only one that has commented murder in my heart. Jesus has said there is no difference to taking a life in my heart or doing it physically. That makes me a murderer as well.
That in itself does not prevent me from being an active member in the church. What would prevent this would be if I was actively committing these sins as an active part of my life with a non-repentive heart. That would make it a life style. Something I choose to do.
What it boils down to is, do we believe the act of homosexuality is a sin. It does not matter if we born into the lifestyle or drawn to the preference of the activity. I believe it is more then clear the Bible say it is a sin.
B Patterson
Is homosexuality a sin? I am not sure we will ever agree on that. I had dinner last night with a good friend who does not believe women should be in the ministry. He believes it is against his interpretation of scripture. As we talked about his grappling with that we talked about another friend of his who does not believe divorced ministers should be allowed to remain in the church.
What I struggle with is why we single homosexuality out if it is a sin and treat it differently? We allow divorced ministers to remain in the ministry. Their experience with divorce actually enables some of them to become more effective ministers to those having problems in a relationship. I have not been in many churches as an adult without active members who were guilty of adultry. Church members look the other direction. I don't think anyone would argue that adultry is not a sin. I have a friend who attends a UMC in another state. They have a homosexual couple on their staff. It is not discussed openly, but in in private their conversations are that it is "okay" because of who they are and they love the Lord.
I know those who claim that you cannot be both homosexual and Christian. But, I also know many sincere, monogamous, committed, active Christian homosexuals. If you suggest to them that they chose the orientation it quickly becomes an emotional conversation. Most struggled for years not to be that way.
I know homosexual ministers who have been called by God into the ministry who have their ministry impacted by not being allowed to be themselves or by having to deny their families.
The answer is not simple here. But, I do believe that we can all serve God in the same church if we all have the same basic Christian beliefs:
I have read a couple of books recently on emerging generations. One is titled "UnChristian" and the other is titled "They Love Jesus, But Not the Church". In both books the authors make the point that one of the problems emerging generations have with the church is we are viewed as homophobic. ... not because some interpret homosexuality as a sin but because we treat those with that sin in a less than loving manner. Both authors by the way believe it is a sin. Both also suggest that maybe the church needs to be more open.
This has been an interesting "conversation" the best part of it is that we can have open exchange on what is definitely a controversial topic.
Thank you all.
Jan
I return to the denominational statement:
Homosexual persons no less than heterosexual persons are individuals of sacred worth. All persons need the ministry and guidance of the church in their struggles for human fulfillment, as well as the spiritual and emotional care of a fellowship that enables reconciling relationships with God, with others, and with self. The United Methodist Church does not condone the practice of homosexuality and consider this practice incompatible with Christian teaching.
From this statement I would agree that all persons have sacred worth. My hope is that the church would be open to all persons attending and being ministered to with an open heart and mind. My hope would be that we would not turn anyone away from the ministry of the church because of their sin or lifestyle. If we did, none of us would be welcomed.
I agree with the discussion trend concerning other sins. We should not target one sin over another. In my thinking it is not the sin we should target but rather the attitude toward the sin. Does a person admit their sin? Have they confessed and repented of their sin? Do they strive to turn away from their sin? Very rarely have I found persons who believe God should accept them as an adulterer, a wife beater, an alcoholic or any other genetic or behavioral sin. Love them as they are, sure, but transform them from their sin. God loves us as we are but loves us enough to not leave us where God finds us.
Some are still in disagreement over whether homosexuality is sin or not. I believe that having the desire is not sin but acting upon it is sin according to Scripture. It is not sin to have a desire or temptation; it is a sin to act upon it in thought, word or deed. This definition would fit all sins.
The issue then becomes acknowledging our sin and striving, through God’s grace, to overcome our sin. The answer is not calling sin acceptable or God given. All things genetic, if that could be proved in homosexuality, are not from God. God’s perfect creation has fallen and through time we have all but destroyed the genetic codes of God’s perfect creation. There is a vast array of genetic items I would not place at the hand of God but rather at our sinful treatment of our bodies which then passes along this brokenness genetically.
I encourage the discussion to continue.
I think one reason why homosexuals might still feel like outcasts when we put so much effort into saying that we accept them as fellow sinners is that they are looking for approval for homosexuality. Certainly politically active homosexuals will feel that way.
I don't have any real experience ministering to homosexuals (that I know of) but one thing we all have in common that we are sinners. It is hard for someone living as a homosexual to acknowledge that it is a sin because society says otherwise. It is certainly much easier for us to work with repentant homosexuals trying to change because we also are repentant sinners trying to change. Unwillingness to acknowledge the sin would be a tough stumbling block to overcome in such a relationship but none of us are in a position to judge (thinking of James 2:10 - And the person who keeps all the laws except one is as guilty as the person who has broken all of God’s laws).
Rick M.
I have been wrestling with the question of how we should relate to persons of same sex orientation for some time now. I have boiled the issue for me down to one question that is theological in nature. I think if we answer the theological question it will guide us in our mission to share Christ with others and how we organize as a church (our ecclesiology).
The question for me is this..."Does God's Grace, as revealed to us in Jesus Christ, have the power to transform a person's sexual orientation?"
Looking at the Gospels we have God's love incarnate reaching out to the marginalized, the least, the outcasts, the sinners. We know that Jesus had the power to change lives through healing, teaching, and challengeing to follow him. So based on the Gospels I would suggest that God's grace can transform lives. The times when Jesus was ineffective or when God's grace incarnate had no effect on people's lives was in direct correlation to their faith.
So we have a grace that has the power to change our lives but is often limited by our own belief or faith in that grace for personal transformation.
But here is the kicker for me..."If we have this all powerful Grace available to us in Jesus Christ then should we not want to extend it to everyone? Would we want anyone not to have the opportunity to embrace it?"
The other question for me personally is..."Has this all powerful grace been fully realized in my own life? Have I allowed it to fully transform me?"
If not then I go back to Jesus who taught us not to throw stones or take specks out of other people's eyes. So I live in this tension of realizing the power of God's grace yet not fully embracing God's grace. We all live in that tension regardless of our sexual orientation.
I think in fleshing out that tension we find our answer in regards to how we approach the issue as a church. John Wesley taught us about three graces; prevenient grace, justifying grace, and sanctifying grace. My thoughts here are centered in how we live out Sanctifying Grace and particulary the question of experiencing full or entire sanctification. So my question remains, "Can a person's sexual orientation be fully transformed by God's Grace as revealed to us in Jesus?"
M. Poole
The discussion has gone along nicely and some different views have been shared. Discussion is good and should continue. I would like to move us off of opinion and experience. We all know people who sin who are nice people - good people from the world's standard. Most times when a murderer's neighbors are interviewed they say: He was such a good neighbor, I can't imagine him doing something like this.
What facts do we have to support our opinions? I want to give some Scriptures to consider. I know this makes this post long, but instead of making you go find them and read them I have included them here.
Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. NIV
Genesis 19:4-5 - 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom — both young and old — surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." NIV
Leviticus 20:13 - 13 "'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. NIV
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - 9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. NIV
Romans 1:24-27 - 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. Amen. 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. NIV
Colossians 2:8 - See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. NIV
It is not as complicated as some have posted.
1. Homosexuality is a sin, according to God's word.
2. Church leaders are called to a higher standard, according to God's word. If one does not meet the higher standard, one is not qualified. Merely professing Christ does not meet the standard.
3. The Gospel message is for any sinner, which is where we all start out. It is not reserved for only certain kinds of sinners.
4. God is sovereign and His power is able to do anything, so says God's word.
5. Those who are ensnared in any kind of sin need the grace of God for salvation, the empowering of the Holy Spirit for maturation, and the commitment to walk in obedience to the Lord Jesus - who is certainly worthy of such a commitment. Victory will occur as God knows what His children need and promises to meet those needs for those that seek His kingdom first (meaning: above all else).
Why is it more complicated than this? You can replace "homosexuality" with "promiscuity" or "profanity" or "drunkenness". It is no different in the sight of God who calls his children to "Be Holy."
Steve Y.
Amen Steve!
I don't see the issue being how the Church treats homosexuals at all. The issues is that it is a sin and some think it is an acceptable lifestyle.
Like Steve said, what if you replaced homosexuality with the sin of drunkenness and said, not only is this sin OK, but I choose it as a lifestyle. Drunk all day every day.
The bible is very clear on what a marriage is. Would not then a homosexual relationship fall under adultery also, since it is not a marriage in Gods eyes?
by no means should the Church shun someone who is Gay, but it should also no be considered a acceptable lifestyle.
1 Corinthians 6:9-11 - 9 shows us homosexuality and prostitution in the SAME sentence! I believe God is making it pretty clear there that neither are acceptable to him.
We need to be careful to not use public/popular opinion or, dare I say it, political correctness to guide our decisions. As Christians the Bible alone must be where we start.
Brad
Dione Says...
Amen Brad and Steve. I would also like to point out that when most people sin, they try to keep it under wraps so people won't know their dirty little secrets. We all sin but for the most part people in the church and in leadership aren't openly living a sinful life. There is a huge difference between someone struggling with sin and another that accepts their sin as their way of life. The only definition of marriage in the bible is with a man and women. Anything outside of that is a sin.
The more important issue is how will we, the people of Mount Oak Church, treat and love all who walk through the doors. Will we love all people but not their sin? Will we reach out to all and not hold back love and service? Will we stand our ground biblical in a Christ honoring manner? It is about love. We need to hate all sin and not ones that upset us the most but more importantly we need to love better, all, and more!
OK Church
We support Bethany and Birthright because we see the pain and sin of abortion. We make blankets for the babies and collect money. But what are we actually doing to personally support women with unborn babies that they may not be able to raise? What are we doing to educate our children so that they are not in that place of decision? Where are we actually meeting this need personally?
We supported Celebrate Recovery at one time, a ministry that served to support the addict and tried to help free them from their addition. It is easy to say drunkenness is a sin and yet another thing to minister to those caught in this and other addictions. I have had a request for Celebrate Recovery to return to Mt. Oak. Who will step up and help us do this?
In this post we have had several people point out through Scripture that sexuality is for marriage and that homosexuality and adultery are sins. But are we willing to host a pornographic support group to help men and women out of this addiction that leads to sexual sin? Are we willing to host a transformation ministry to help homosexuals leave their learned behaviors or overcome the mutated genetics that may give them this sinful desire? Are we willing to accept all persons into our fellowship and love them in spite of their (our) sins?
It is easy to have doctrine or to give rhetoric. It is much harder to overcome our bias or uncomfortable feelings with certain sins and actually reach out and try to help. Will we be the church and not just the doctrine police? Will we actually roll up our sleeves and help others (even ourselves) overcome sin and become more and more like Jesus? Living as Disciples of Jesus Christ! Is that really our vision? It takes more than words my friends.
Very nice! Well said and I love the scripture references. I think the fact that "homosexuality" is spoken off in light of our times and is defended against so strongly, is not because we are un-loving and do not have a heart or compassion for those caught up in this particular sin. The problem we are facing and why we as christians need to hold fast to God's word and contend earnestly for it in regards not only to all truth, but more so with this issue, is because there are forces that are trying to "force" it on us and have us change our views and accept it, therefore rendering the gospel reletive and pluralistic.
Let it never be!!! While some struggle with this sin, we cannot accept or condone it in the fashion that the world wants us too.
One reason we sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, over and over with the same sin is because we have not repented of it. Repentance means to turn away, look upon that sin the way God does and see it as an adomination. We need to realize and accept that our ways are not His ways. Look at Joseph when confronted by Potiphars wife, what did he do? He ran, ran from the sin and not only that but the temtation of it.
For example, I have a propensity to sin sexually. Therefore, I try to avoid all forms of it by not even reading news stories that are sullied by it. I used to go to strip clubs. Well, I can't do that! I don't want to do that! It is an adomination to God. You see we can't say we are repenting of sin and yet allow ourselves to "live" in it or be tempted by it. That is what we are doing when we allow homosexuals to remain "homosexual", they need to repent and to not help them with this temptation and allow them to continue without rebuke, we are enabling them and I ask; is this love is this the love of Christ? I say it is un-loving and the scriptures will back this statement.
Humbly,
Bob Rogers
Dear Casual Reader - I like your points but unless you identify yourself to me you cannot post on this site. When you do I will post your thoughts as "casual reader".
Can we move beyond the debate of sin and move to the discussion about how to minister to folks dealing with sin (that would be all of us folks)? We struggle in this area when it is our sin or sin that makes us feel uncomfortable.
How can we go beyond our comfort zone and minister to people who are hurting or don't realize they are hurting who are caught up in sin? How can we express the love of Jesus without sounding self righteous or condemning? Christ didn't condemn the women (where was the man) caught in adultery. He expressed compassion and urged her to go a sin no more. How can we show this compassion and love to each other?
I know who this person is and have allowed them to voice their comment and have signed them in as loving sister.
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I have read some of the blogs on your page (something I do not normally do) and will throw in my perspective on the homosexuality issue.
One of my brothers is homosexual and living with their partner in a seemingly compatible relationship. Whilst I believe that homosexuality is sin as the Bible says. I have the desire and responsibility to maintain a relationship with my brother. He and I have spoken at length on what my beliefs are and he accepts me as his sister while not totally liking my stance on his chosen life style.
Walking this out is not easy or comfortable. This is not some stranger or acquaintance, this is my little brother. How do I and he handle family gatherings? How do I relate to his partner? Sometimes I have had to make difficult decisions. My husband and I cannot allow behavior in our home that is not what we believe to be correct or is offensive to us and God. We have set standards for ourselves and our children and have tried to live by those standards.
Other members of my family who are also Christians do not have the same standards in their home as we do in regard to my brother and his partner. Again we have talked about our different approaches and have resolved to respect each others point of view. All this takes time and a lot of talking and soul searching and courage to face the awkward and possibly divisive situations.
I love my brother and I also love his partner, but I do not love or condone their lifestyle. Do I witness to my brother? Yes I do. I do not preach to him, but I remind him that he is loved by God and by me. I remind him that he is still my little brother and we can laugh at the memories we shared growing up together.
God does indeed hate the sin and loves the sinner. He loves me even though I sin and cause offense to Him. He always offers reconciliation and welcome to me. When I turn to Him, He is there with love and restoration. How can we as the body of Christ reach out to the lost? Just as Jesus did, He told the truth, He spoke the Word and he walked out his beliefs in real life. He was honest.
Loving Sister
I know who this person is and allow them to be anonymous.
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I have always been too shy to try to deal with other’s sins. I have a full time job with my own. But I might reach out to someone that was trying to give up smoking and someone that was trying to overcome an eating disorder. But to reach out to someone that was living a homosexual lifestyle – no way. That was for the Pastors or the Evangelists – but not for me. But the church I was attending had a homosexual couple in attendance. The majority of the congregation did not know. But the Pastor had spoken with the couple unbeknown to all (he had counseled them and they had agreed to live apart). One was hired as a temporary director of the preschool. But it soon became apparent they were not living apart. Because of this and because there was the slightest hint of impropriety I, the chair of the SPRC, was asked to have the director step down. Nothing prepares you for something like this. I am thankful that there is so much discussion on this BLOG. I agree that we need to be prepared in our daily walk for situations such as this. To reach out to those in love. We cannot condemn. I think if I had had a BLOG such as this back then I may had been better prepared and felt better about that ten minutes of conversation.
I read an artical in "Christianity Today" not that long ago written by an ex-homoseual. He stated in the artical that he knew he was wrong however when looking for help from different so called christians all he felt was judged and never felt God's love until he feel into a fellowship that took him in and made him accountable for his sin. He was assigned a mentor that he could openly discuss his feelings with and when the past crep up he had someone who would pray with him and be there showing God's true love.
I guess there is a reason God tells us to love others and hate sin. Not hate others and judge their sin.
I would like to offer a different perspective on homosexuality although I admit to being reluctant to doing so. I ask that just for a few minutes you all be open to some different ideas from what has been presented so far.
Before I do that I want to answer Rev. Ray's question on how we minister to homosexuals. The answer is very simple. We minister to them the same way we do to everyone else who walks through the doors of our churches or who we meet in our communities. We share God's love with them and tell them about his amazing grace. We should not treat them differently because we don't understand them. We should not assume that they want to change. We should be open to relationships with them and what they have to share with us. We should not refuse to treat them as couples or families because we don't think they can be couples or families. We should realize that their perspectives might be different. We should not assume that we are right and they are wrong.
You may believe that the homosexual couple who walks through the doors of the church to join our faith community believes they are sinning (by being in a homosexual relationship) and wants to change. They may have a different interpretation of the scripture surrounding homosexuality (even respected theologians and Biblical scholars don't agree). They may love the Lord as much as any of us. They may want to find a faith community where they can worship and serve him.
Our job is to open the door to know Christ's love to those he puts in our paths. It is God's job to save them, not ours. It is also not our job to judge those who think differently from us.
God calls us into ministry where he wants us. If he calls a homosexual into the United Methodist Church to serve him who are we to question that calling?
Consider for a moment that there is no reference (at least that I am aware of) in scripture to committed homosexual relationships. If what I have studied is accurate the word homosexual did not exist when the books of the Bible were penned so the various translations and paraphrases over the years have varied in their wording. Rev. Ray mentioned some of the verses in an earlier entry. Many books have been written on homosexuality and the Bible by the scholars I mentioned above and by homosexual Christians. It is not an easy subject.
Let me say this though, I believe that if any of us closes the door on a relationship with a homosexual because he or she will not "change", then we are not showing the love God asks that we show to others. I believe that if we keep our children from associating with children raised by Gay couples that we are teaching them prejudice. I believe that if we don't let them in our churches we are not doing what Christ tells us in scripture.
I think I mentioned it earlier but whether we are Gay or Straight, it should be obvious to others that we are Christians when we meet them.
So -- to Ray's question -- we should treat the homosexual (saved or unsaved) who God puts in our paths with love and respect. And, we should make sure they know without having to be told that we are Christians.
Jan
Do we despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads men to repentance? Romans 2:4
I too have homosexual family members, and they know I do not accept their lifestyle, but I will not allow them to be a stumbling block for me. As a child of God, I am called to imitate the love of Christ. Romans 2:4 is so true. When I ponder God's goodness along the way in my own life, it causes me to commit my way to Him. His goodness, longsuffering and forebearance causes me to look on my ignorance with a heart that says no more. They will know us by our love. Love compels one to be drawn to the light. Love will cause me to pray for them, that there eyes would be turned from darkness to light. Condemnation will not accomplish this. Praying that GOD WOULD give them a hunger and thirst for His righteousness. This is grace working. It is a supernatural work! Relationship is key to transformation. By relationship with an individual we gain an entrance to the heart. In order to have relationship, we must spend time with the person, let them know we have an authentic concern for their welfare, we must share life. Otherwise, you have no door to enter with the Word. I am not saying to celebrate a homosexual marriage, an anniversary or hang out with them in their homosexual culture, but let your love speak. Earnest prayer for them, kindness, celebrate a birthday or an accomplishment, an invitation to celebrate with you is an opening to be a light. Light allows you to see your way when it is dark. Arguments with a person who is in a place of sin will not compel them to repent. But your faith to pray and claim them for the Kingdom of God, believing that God is and He is a rewarder of diligent seeking. Often, when God wants to shut my mouth on a matter, He causes me to remember that when Jesus was spit on and mocked and the likes He committed them to the one who judges righteously. He did not need to defend Himself. The lie cannot stand against the truth. How far are we willing to go for another. Our example is Jesus, He chose the cross. I believe the ball, the power, the ability is in the court of the believer to lay our lives down. The world does a great job of organizing to get their agenda pushed. I pray for the body of Christ to unify and organize massive assault campaigns against the kingdom of darkness. We must remember it is a whole force not just an individual. I do realize that laying down your life will look different for each individual because he fashioned our heart individually, but as one. But, the agenda must always be God's not our own. As many but one....yes...this is Kingdom mathematics!
Love To All,
Kim Gibson
We all derive the meaning of something we read or something another tells us by applying the filter of interpretation that our lifes experiences have given us.
We all study the word and "listen" to what God is telling us. God "speaks" to each of us through different passages and he may be communicating something different to two of us through the same passage. And, that message may be completely different from what he communicated to someone in a different time or culture through the same passage. That is one of the things that differentiates the Bible from any other text. Cultures change but the Bible never loses its relevancy.
I want to share an experience with all of you that has helped and is helping me focus my life on God's unique plan for it.
I am participating in a Refocused Living leadership process at another United Methodist church. Refocus is basically a process that the leadership goes through to focus the church on God's unique plan for it. The starting point is focusing the participants on God's unique plan for them. Our team includes: a church member who was in the candidacy process pastor, one who fights a serious eating disorder, , a divorced pastor, a homosexual in a committed relationship, a Christian who follows a Reformed theology rather than an Armenian theology and more than one person transitioning between different phases of life. We had in common: our church, our desire to serve the Lord and share his love, and our desire to grow spiritually.
We are still in phase one of the process but I can tell you that what God has taught us through the process of focusing on God's unique plan AND learning to love, respect, and trust each other is amazing. The different perspectives have certainly frustrated us at times but they have also helped us to grow. Each of us is listening to what God is telling us through the relationships we are building with each other.
Jan
I've had some interesting discussions with students over the years. This topic brought one such conversation to mind.
A student told me about her trip to India, and how she wondered if all men in India were gay, because she saw lots of men walking hand-in-hand. I told her that in Eastern cultures, men haven't forgotten how to show affection for each other. There, men can still hold hands, embrace, and even kiss to demonstrate affection. (If the word "kiss" seems repellent, be sure to read up on Jonathan and David, wonderful models of God-honoring love between men.) I told her that Western culture seems to have abandoned these forms of communication for men, and we're poorer for it.
We all need to be touched. When we love someone dearly, we feel the need to touch them and be touched by them. In American culture, touching seems to have acquired a primarily sexual connotation, especially with regards to men. To perhaps avoid being labeled a homosexual, men seem less predisposed than women to express affection for those of the same sex in a physical way, except for the occasional "hand hug" or slap on the back. Given that homosexuals have overcome this barrier to nonsexual touch (and gone beyond it, where sin lies), ministering to these men might require greater vulnerability and a greater willingness to discuss and demonstrate love amongst men. Perhaps Christian men need to consciously push the envelope of American convention, embrace once acceptable forms of expressing affection, and demonstrate loving relationships that meet the human need for touch AND still honor God. Perhaps such relationships would provoke homosexuals to jealosy and encourage them to seek relationships with us, friendships that might lead to opportunities for sharing Jesus?
I hesitated to post a comment here because when it's all about sex it's not all about grace. It's clear that Jesus talked about what was most important--the Kingdom of God. Nevertheless, having read how one church has dealt with this challenge at http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080513/32351_Joel_Osteen_Maintains_Homosexuality_as_Sin.htm and that "soulforce" is coming our way--to our neighboring Hope Christian Church--I wonder whether we could show grace without compromise.
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